....for your true worth to the industry!!!

When do you think you are ready to charge?

The question may come up time and time again but its interesting to hear views. Especially talking to a nice model at a recent dinner party about this.

I think every model on this board wants to charge for their services. On the flip side not every photographer does.

My peet peev is new "photographers" coming on to the scene, producing sh*t and saying to models, ohh I'm not ready to pay models, I need to practice on TFP. Models please turn these people away like the plague...you will be already on your way to charging. I think new models and new photographers are a bad combination, in my opinion.

When I stopped doing general TFP the models stopped beating on my door (the reason I stopped anyway), now I get paid by agency models to create images for them...ie I have stopped over selling myself to the market and I don't sit up working on images all night (as much).

It is more hard work with a new model so it needs to reflected in pricing even if its only a few pounds. We are not going to be retiring on model portfolios.

Why do new "photographers" NOT pay models? Why do models go to these?
Where do models and photographers cross the line of charging?
Do the models and photographers who charge, think they charge enough?
Do the models and photographers who charge know or think they are good enough to charge?

Based on yesterdays show (I haven't heard yet), maybe the basic questions need answered?

These are my questions not F32 questions.

B

I have a blog up with a similar question , I after 2 years of paying models there has to be a stage where it is beneficial  for togs to do some TF/?

I my option new models should pay togs for portfolios well that’s what I would do if (god forbid I was a model)!

And all new tog should pay quality models, (as I have for 2 years now) but my question is at what point to togs take TF/? Or do you not as mentioned in my blog!

Thanks Martin    

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If a model is giving you a service (ie modelling) then you pay her, if you are giving her a service (a portfolio) she pays you.

TFP is a personal thing, but if everyone was doing TFP no one makes anything ever.

At the bottom end of the scale TFP is no harm, but for pro models and photographers the effects are huge.

If models play fair and charge everyone, they would be able to afford to pay the photographers who would it turn pay models who it turn........

On top of that the models that make nothing probably arent model material....harsh truth?

B

[/quote]

HI Brendan

I totally agree , TF if it is benefiting both parties (I thought that’s what it was there for) I still see myself at the lower end of this scale, I pay models and will continue to do so,, but the reason I undertook  TF/?  was to benefit both patties and the models existing portfolio was all TF and was in my option poor refelection I could help her portfolio and in doing so could use some  images for my own!  

Is this classed as Unacceptable? 

I think that's a somewhat unrealistic expectation. The subject of TFP comes up almost as frequently as silly debates over film -v- digital, Canon -v- Nikon or Mac -v- PC and usually end up going nowehere.

At the end of the day it's up to each individual to decide on how they want to work this and whilst I agree that certain scenario's are preferable to others, the reality is that it's a free market economy in which models and photographers are free to come to any agreement they wish.

I agree that a beginning model plus a beginning photographer working together on a shoot are almost certainly destined to failure. The real win/win situation is when you have an experienced model doing TFP with an experienced photographer. Both are then freed of the pressures of having to produce results and can put all their effort into producing something special, not because they have to but because they want to.

Let's take the following scenario (unlikely as it may be). A model pays a photographer to shoot a portfolio. The photographer finds he works well with the model and wants to work with her again, so next time he/she pays the model. So now, they've paid each other. Is that really any different to TFP? OK, I realise I'm stretching things a little with this, but I'm just trying to drive home a point. Done correctly and with the right people, TFP is far from being a waste of time and effort for either party.

- Thorsten.

Ahhhhh a TFP debate.

Does anyone want to answer my questions? lol

B

Brendan My answers!!  

Why do new "photographers" NOT pay models? Why do models go to these?

I do Pay models and have done from day 1 and would recommend this to any new tog! (although I may not be classed as new)

Where do models and photographers cross the line of charging?

I take it by this you mean TF/? , when it suits both parties and is beneficial to both!

Do the models and photographers who charge, think they charge enough?

Don’t know as I think I am not good enough to charge yet! But if I was and knowing how I am I would end up feeling sorry and not charging as much as it should cost!  

Do the models and photographers who charge know or think they are good enough to charge?

I know I am not good enough to charge, so Yes!

Thanks Martin

Why do new "photographers" NOT pay models?

I assume it's because they haven't got a clue what to look for in a model, don't know if they are getting value for money and don't know if they're actually going to get anything out of it.

Now, put the shoe on the other foot, and ask, why do new "models" not pay photographers?

Why do models go to these?

I don't know. Ask the models. But I'm guessing it's because they don't have the skills or confidence when starting out and if they screw up, sure they can always blame the photographer.

Where do models and photographers cross the line of charging?

Not quite sure what you mean by that question so I'll pass if I may!

Do the models and photographers who charge, think they charge enough?

As a photographer, no I don't charge enough, especially when I heard what some photographers are charging for a 10-image portfolio. Perhaps if I charged more (or even if I charged at all) I might be taken more seriously.

Do the models and photographers who charge know or think they are good enough to charge?

Well, I certainly think I'm good enough to charge. That might sound arrogant, but a healthy dose of arrogance, or should I say, self-belief, is helpful in any business. Of course that doesn't mean I'm happy with my work. I always think there is room for improvement! I know my work is better than many photographers calling themselves profesional and making a living at it, but then again, running a succesful business does not necessarily go hand in hand with being a good photographer!

- Thorsten.

Hope you don't mind, I respectfully disagree with that view. While it's true to say that quality photography is a significant benefit in generating more business, it's not nearly as useful as sound business and marketing skills. I know of pleny of example where the photography leaves a lot to be desired but the businesses are very succesful because of the sales and marketing tactics employed and because they are built on very sound business principles.

Rather than take an example from the world of photography, take a look at the airline industry. I'm sure everyone agrees that Ryanair is undoubtedly one of the most succesful airlines of our time, if not the most succesful. But most people would also agree that they would hardly class them as a quality airline!

- Thorsten.

Actually, in terms of this being a boring, much hashed debate, I feel it's becoming a very pressing matter for the industry. Recent "scandals" have shown that what we have in terms of a growing industry of models who can work independently and photographers who are finding more and more avenues to sell model photography work for syndication, is a growing community that we need to protect before it fades away into "Folio32 - the hobbyists club" where we all get together and shoot incessantly for a lot of hard work and no reward. Am I the only one who would very quickly become tired of that?

And not for the reasons you might think - not because I want fame and money, but because I would very quickly wish to completely disassociate myself from an increasing number of poor images. I'm actually getting bored of telling models to PAY for a good portfolio, learn from a master and then when you've got something to offer, charge for your services. It is then true (and only then), that 2 experienced people can work together TFwhatever to create excellent images. There is NO-ONE on this site who is that naturally gorgeous that she should expect to get paid simply because the gene pool was generous to her. Nor is there a photographer that walked out of the mother's womb with a camera in one hand and a lightbox in the other. It's about skill and experience and you don't get one without the other.

It's common knowledge that an abundance of TFP models damages other model's chances of getting work but notice that, for some of us, our lack of work is not a result of being cr*p, it's a choice, personal revolts against the trend and a refusal to work for nothing, even when it means we miss out on great projects with good people. However, do photographers not realise that the abundance of TFP photographers is damaging to them?? Not least because, if I'm not being paid, I can't then go and pay you to help me create something I've seen you do that I can't get anywhere else. And as for new girls paying for portfolios and skill training (which is common practice in England) you can forget it, they'd sooner go to the friendly guy down the road for 500 generic images because they don't want the skills, the longevity or even a proper career, they just want images.

I love to model, as do most models, that's not a new concept. If I wanted to do it every weekend and upload lots of mediocre images then no doubt I could, if I offered my TFP services constantly. This would damage what I've already achieved so I don't. I'm sure this is the same for many photographers who don't get to shoot that often. Will I offer TFP to certain photographers? Yes and I often approach them for it. Will I pay certain photographers of an even higher level in my humble opinion? Again, YES and I fully intend to when I get this baby out of me.

Basically, it can be argued that the "economic cycle" of you paying me to pay you to pay me is like TFP but not really. You pay me because I'm better than what you've worked with before in your opinion. I then might pay SOMEONE ELSE who I feel is better than anything I've done. He/she might then pay a NEW GIRL who has a new look that hasn't been seen before, the new girl then pays SOMEONE ELSE for a portfolio of work and so all these individuals have passed on money but not the same amount and not to the same people. This creates a very small, but a very healthy economy, no?

As for the most common question I get asked: when do you know when to charge? Simple answer, when someone asks how much for your services. And once you do charge, unless you're very careful about when you don't, you'll be lucky to be paid again by anyone who can offer anything to enhance your portfolio. So it'll be you and your TFP buddy forever. Don't people know they're on a TFP list??  lol but seriously, I could name people to put on it, could you not? And if they're "on the list" why should I pay them? TFP floozies that's what I call 'em...

Lx